Some residents have expressed the need for an EOGM to be called so that the entire process can be dealt with transparency & clarity. Any comments ??
This topic is now CLOSED. Thank you for your contributions & comments.
Latest update
• Teresa Ville Protem Sales Committee (TVPSC) met on August 25, 2007.
• In responses to invitations to 5 Property Agents and 5 Legal Consultants, there was positive response only from following property Agents
o Jones Lang LaSalle (JLL)
o Huttons
• None of the invited Law firms accepted their invitation.
• In last week of August 2007, a number of amendments in the Law governing process of Collective Sales were proposed. These proposed changes also include process of selection of Property Agents and Law firms.
• On recommendation from one of the subsidiary proprietors, an invitation was sent to a Law firm named De’souza Tay & Goh, who agreed to meet.
• On September 1, 2007, all 3 above mentioned firms met TVPSC members.
o De’souza Tay & Goh law firm presented their credentials and briefly explained salient points of proposed changes in Law. As per their view, Teresa Ville Protem sales committee shall be deemed as lawful, as it was formed in a duly convened EOGM.
(This is one of the requirements in proposed changes in Law. )
o JLL had a discussion with TVPSC members, who suggested that they should wait till new Law comes in force, before proceeding further.
o Huttons, gave a formal presentation on their experience and proposal to act as the Marketing Agent..
• Following TVPCS members submitted their resignation as committee members, due to work commitments –
1) William Phua (August 20)
2) Jacqueline Boudeville (August 24)
3) Philip Ang (September 9)
4) Kum Kong Chan (September 13)
In meeting of August 25, members unanimously agreed that since there were sufficient number of committee members, instead of looking for replacement, committee would continue to function with remaining members.
• Despite proactive efforts to invite more Property and Legal firms, there was not much success in getting positive response. It is a general presumption that most of Property Agents and LawFirms are waiting for the new Law to come in force (expected in October 2007). They might like to study impact of new law on scope of their role, responsibilities and costs before giving a serious proposal.
It is therefore decided that instead of evaluating only limited number of candidates and proceeding further, they should wait till the new Law is in place.
TVPSC shall now meet, only after the New Law is in force and shall proceed as per the provisions of new law.
Thank You..
Update...
A quick update
EOGM was convened on 28 July Saturday at 3:00 pm at Function Room 2&3 in TeresaVille, & following :
(1) 59% quorum was achieved
(2) 76% of the quorum voted "FOR" collective sales.
(3) A Reserve price of 850+ million for the entire estate was fixed by majority vote. (proposed 800+, 850+, 900+)
(4) A sales Committe of 15 members was selected & endorsed.
Any comments/views, please share in the post below. Cheers !
EOGM was convened on 28 July Saturday at 3:00 pm at Function Room 2&3 in TeresaVille, & following :
(1) 59% quorum was achieved
(2) 76% of the quorum voted "FOR" collective sales.
(3) A Reserve price of 850+ million for the entire estate was fixed by majority vote. (proposed 800+, 850+, 900+)
(4) A sales Committe of 15 members was selected & endorsed.
Any comments/views, please share in the post below. Cheers !
26 comments:
...whatever has to be done should be done in a proper, democratic and normally accepted legal manner and that is why we propose that an Extra Ordinary General meeting (EOGM) should be called to consider this matter asap. The very fact that the Government has proposed to rectify the present rules (which might be impelementsed very soon) to make it necessary for the majority to decide on matters relating to 'Collective Sales' and formation of a Protem and Sales Committee' and to fix a 'reserve price' to avoid unpleasant situations and un-necessar litigations later shows how important this matter is. One fails to understand why is one group trying to beat this proposition?...... give this matter a thought!!!!!
DINESH MAHESHWARI
Even if its not required by law, its extremely disrepectful and rude for this protem committee to be formed without going through an AGM or EGM.... Let me assure you, the developers and property agents will have a serious 'fight' on their hands this time....
Democracy and Transparency is often the antithesis of Efficiency. For an enbloc sale process to be efficient, it must move along all aspects of the sale procedure (from formation of protem SC to legal completion) quickly. The agents will want to do that because they have other fish in the pond to catch. The lawyers want that because they only get paid at the end, and the SC wants the sale to be done quickly because they want their money.
Which is why, often, agents (and sometimes even lawyers) would recommend minimising contact time with owners (both pro- and anti- enbloc). The more information owners have, the more they may question things such as method of apportionment between agents X Y and Z, why did they chose one over the other, etc etc. The LESS they know, the more efficient it gets.
An EOGM does only one thing - to notify all owners that something's coming up. It will not stop an 'efficient' SC from keeping decisions made behind close doors. They have 2 key advantages - carte blanche courtesy of the CSA which indemnifies them from any action they take, and the CSA gives them total control over all decisions since you relinquish any and all rights to them the minute you sign the CSA.
So why bother to keep people in the loop, when it'll "create more headaches" as one agent said at a protem SC presentation? :(
An EOGM is costly and time consuming, and what do you get in an EOGM, a new committee which will do the same old thing as appointing agent and lawyer. I will not be surprised if JLL and Rajah and Tan come in again as their fees are the most competitive. So why waste time ? To me, if you buy Teresa Ville for long stay, than just dont sign the agreement, as the values, master plan 2008 and plot ratio will not affect your decision, also you dont need to sign if you find the reserve price is too low. AN EOGM is not necessary, in my personal opinion.
P S Tio
1007, 18-02
At present a group of few owners (SPs)appoint themselves into a sale committee to proceed with the formalities of going about the enbloc without calling a meeting of the legal owners then try to get 80% by whatever means.We want to set things right to ensure all owners are well informed of the intention, during this meeting owners should be 1) educated of the pros and cons of enblocking their HOMES and current market situation. 2)Get approval of the proposition of going Enbloc sales "in principal" 3)owners should nominate the pro-tem committee if their is at least 60% consensus.
It's necessary to ensure all the above are above board to avoid future problems, unnecessary and time consuming letigations.
YES, WE hv to be very careful with the CSA as Dr.Minority had warned us.There is no recourse once you signed on the CSA.
Reply to PS Tio,
Thanks for taking time to post a comment.
The new committee will achieve the same objective (sell Teresa), but the process, framework, control, terms & condition, price, timing, transparency, accountability, documentation, will be different. This is why it is important that we all contribute on HOW things should be done.
There are MANY aspects of the en-bloc that can be different. I'm listing just some areas that our agent and lawyer should do:
1. Appropriate reserve price, reflecting replacement price.
2. Clear plan to unlock Teresa Value. We've identified a few major items:
1. Remnant lands (there are 2 of them)
2. A new MRT station is coming, walking distance to Teresa. Location is at Kampong Bahru
3. Part of the port may move, to be replaced with condo/residential/hotels. We heard that it's warehouse that will move first. It is too close to the MRT in point 2.
4. higher plot ratio. We are expecting 3.X in 2008.
3. Keeping all owners informed on plans, progress, marketing plan. I'm yet to see any useful thing here.
4. Plain-English CSA.
5. Method of apportionment that is fair. The 50-50 method has to be complemented with other aspects (height, view, renovation, etc). I have simple yet effective suggestion here.
6. Taking care of minority. Things like recommending places, listening to their concern, assuring them.
I have not seen our agent and lawyer think of those items. We pay them, and they are supposed to add value as experts.
There are other suggestions I can come up with to improve the whole en-bloc experience for owners. I just feel it's the job of our agent and lawyers to do it.
Speaking of these professionals... I'm a believer that we pay peanut, we get peanut. I'd rather pay $10K for them and get $3.0M than pay $5K and get $2.9M. The delta is 95K, a good start for my kids university endowment plan.
Again, thank you for taking time. We have a meeting on 2 June, Sat. Time & venue not decided yet. You are most welcome to join the meeting as we believe in transparency and respect for others opinion. Kindly call the 3 mobile numbers listed in the letter sent. A copy of the letter is also on every notice boads.
Iwan
Blk 1005, #22-03
"We pay them, and they are supposed to add value as experts.
There are other suggestions I can come up with to improve the whole en-bloc experience for owners. I just feel it's the job of our agent and lawyers to do it. "
I'm afraid that we're paying them to look after the interests of the developers... ironic
18-02
Can somebody please enlighten me on how this proposed EOGM helps ?
If you want to start a new Sale Committee, you don't need an EOGM to form one.
If you want to stop the one already formed - ie the JLL/R&T group - having an EOGM will not stop them either.
As the JLL/R&T group is already calling for a Residents' Meeting on 23rd June, why not just use that forum to discuss matters ? If necessary, call for another Residents' Meeting after that put forth any point of view you feel has not been sufficiently addressed at that meeting.
Imho, an EOGM is formalistic, require significant resources and is no better than a Residents' Meeting which is easier to convene and may be even more productive.
suhaw
1007#12-04
This is nothing new.The objectives of the Agent and Lawyers are a WILLING seller and a WILLING buyer and the deal is done.
They are only interested in their fees and who face the consequences???
If EOGM is not necessary for such purposes why is a Parliament necessary for discussing issues which concern the country men and secondly what is the necessity of a Management Council in any Estate, if things have to be done through private meetings which can only encourage acrimony between people ??
resident blk 1005
Response to Mr. Suhaw's (1007 #12-04)comments of June 3..
Meeting of June 23rd is called by JLL with support of PTSC. This is THEIR meeting, THEIR equipment, THEIR Agenda. Their letter clearly implies that they have called the meeting to "...Update ...on details of Collective Sale.." and "...to go through the draft of Collective Sale Agreement...."
This meeting is NOT called to discuss merits and pitfalls of enbloc. This Meeting is NOT called to Educate Owners what Options they have if they sell their home. is it teh right time? Do we have to Downgrade? What are the Replacement options? Why not wait till Government brings a new law re en-bloc process in just few months? Why not wait to see in URA's plan 2008, if Teresa Ville Can get higher Plot ratio? This meeting is not called to focus on these all important questions.
This meeting is a Private Meeting NOT an EVEN FIELDED PUBLIC Forum like EOGM, where every owner shall have equal opportunity to express their views and learn from others (including neutral experts) what are the Plus and Minuses of Collective Sale. And if owners vote for Collective Sale now, then to decide what Minimum Reserve Prices can give them an equivalent Replacement Property plus Substantial Cash Profit for all the inconvenience.
That is WHY, the appeal to support an EOGM. An OWNERS MEETING, not a meeting by a Third Party with commercial Interest. It is not an attempt to stop any other initiative..Nor to create an altenate PTSC..
Cheers..
JLL has sent a letter to owners of having fixed a meeting of the owners of Teresa Ville on the 23rd July 2007 which is not an 'EOGM' called by the Management Council of Teresa Ville and therefore according to most of us, has no official credentials. It is only a privately called meeting. This should be understood very clearly.
The correct way to do this is to call for an official EOGM or to include this in the agenda for the Annual General Meeting to be held in September/October 2007 by which time the new and amended laws are also going to come in force. At this meeting proper presentations must be made for considering the pros and cons of 'Collective Sales' and if it has to be done what should be the minimum price each owner should get considering various aspects of the matter and also the cost of replacement. If this is not done in the proper manner, I am afraid we will all be indulging ourselves in the process of 'downgrading our living standards' which is something horrible to do for our families unless we are forced into desperate situation.
I must also warn my fellow neighbours that since the new laws are soon coming in force and even if the En-block initiative is moved now we will have to re do the entire procedure under the provisions of the new laws which in any case will make it essential for us to hold an EOGM of the owners along with other important matters. This was mentioned during the meeting JLL had called at their office and the lawyers had clearly mentioned that it is impossible to get everything done before the new laws are in force. Therefore it is not understood as to why they have called an owner's meeting on the 23rd June 2007. If there has to be a meeting, it should be called officially by the Management Council or else there will be a situation where we may have five or six different groups calling for various meetings and we achieve nothing. It will only result in acrimony between people who are presently living as good neighbours. I will really like to understand from some one the wiseness of doing such things and what is the terrible hurry to do this. Can anyone say with assurance that the property market will suddenly fall within the next six months? As a matter of fact please appreciate that more than 99% people predict that the property market will be booming for the next one or two years and the plot ratios will have to be increased in view of the decision of the Government to increase the population base of Singapore. You do not need a rocket scientist to figure that?
I urge my friends to consider these matters carefully, after all we are all educated people with sane and rational minds.
This mail is without any prejudice, it is an earnest request of a friend.
Dinesh C. Maheshwari from #16-03 Block 1007 Teresa Ville.
We support Dinesh C.M that an EOGM is absolutely necessary inview of the new rules so that whatever happened we need not re-do the whole process.We want to be transparent and adhere to the MCST: section 14 as stated earlier.
Thank you,Resident
Read through the entire bloc with keen interest - in particular the one from Mr Rajeev Mukul on the upcoming JLL's proposed owner's meeting along with the PTSC.
Some concerns I have to share with you folks on our STV blog:
(1) How can anyone possibly go through a lengthy draft CSA over a 4hr session? Is that effective? Even if the residents are legally trained, it is impossible to go through the draft during ONE single session (assuming meeting starts at 2pm and end off by 6pm)
(2) Would the PTSC's Chairman like to confirm that he is clear about every single word within the draft CSA in the best interests of all his fellow residents @ TV? (I am also assuming that the Chairman would want to look after the interests of not only his but his fellow residents :))
(3)Was the draft CSA routed to all resident owners for their pre-reading? [This could possibly help a wee bit]
(4) I can be as candid as I could - Is there any hidden agenda in this upcoming meeting??
Wise owner/residents & friends of TV, be cautious of the real intent of the meeting :))
Let us listen with an open-heart and seek answers with an open-mind.
Cheers.
Resident Owner of TV
Everyone has his or her own reasons for wanting or not wanting to sell. Let's not get personal nor get overly suspicious. The decision lies with the owners. I hope we are living in a democracy ... let the majority decides. Use the meeting on June/23 to say your peace and let each owner decides what is best for himself or herself.
Gan HS
We agree with view expressed that June 23 meeting may not give an equal and fair platform to owners who have alternate views to express. This meeting's proceedings have been decided by JLL & R&T. They are trained professionals to put their point across using all available resources. A disadvantage to simple family oriented residents who may need equal time (may be more - for not being trained to speak)on the podium to voice their concerns and seek clarifications. We are 100% with the idea of democracy.. But that means equal opportunity to ALL.. EOGM seems the right venue to present alternate views in a fair and harmonious way.
A neighbor, striving to give a better life to family not hassle and downgrade.
Okay, if anybody is dissatisfied with the June 23 Residents' Meeting, he or she is free to call for another meeting.
There is nothing wrong, abnormal or illegal about having Sale Committees appointed "undemocratically". There is no need for SC members to be democratically elected. This is not some beauty pageant nor parliamentary contest, just an administrative arrangement to facilitate a commercial objective. And thus far, billions of dollars have changed hands without any EOGM convened to elect any SCs.
Say what you want, but a collective sale is nothing more than that: a commercial transaction. If you are in favour of the terms of the collective sale, simply sign the CSA, otherwise ignore it. If the requisite 80% mark is not achieved or a buyer is not found, the CSA lapses after some time, otherwise everybody is reimbursed the sum as stated in the CSA.
Sure, it will probably be less messy to have an EOGM to kick-start an en-bloc process, but the law on that is still not clear yet and also has not come into effect yet. So, until the law has been passed, we should abide by whatever that system there is.
And, until the proposed laws are passed, the MC has no obligation to call for an EOGM. Should/Could the MC call for an EOGM ? There are divergent views on the answers to these questions. Frankly, I don't know myself and even Parliament has yet to debate, much less come to a decision, on these questions.
Anyway, I would like to repeat my original question: "Can somebody please enlighten me on how this proposed EOGM helps ?"
You don't need an EOGM to form an SC. And even if you form an SC at this proposed EOGM, there is nothing to prevent the JLL/R&T consortium from continuing with what they have already done and attempt to secure the requisite 80% majority. There is no law that says any SC should be given exclusivity and there is no EOGM resolution you can pass to achieve that exclusivity either.
Whatever resolutions you hope to pass at the EOGM, it is simply not binding, ie cannot be enforced.
Sure, it is an opportunity for residents to air our views, but to what effect ? Why go through the hassle and jump through the hoops to call for an EOGM when a Residents' Meeting would be equally effective ?
Please do not mistake my position. I am neither for the JLL/R&T consortium nor do I quite understand what you hope to achieve. I just hope that good sense will prevail.
suhaw
Reply to Mr Gan HS,
"Use the meeting on June/23 to say your peace and let each owner decides what is best for himself or herself."
My reply: I'm ok, so long JLL and Rajah & Tann are not present. Is this an Owners meeting, or JLL/RT meeting? With due respect to Mr Gan as a lawyer, your _company_ has a clear business interest, which is to proceed the enbloc with R&T as lawyer.
I think we should do an owners meeting (or EOGM), where no outsider with business agenda are present (let alone calling and chairing the meeting) to discuss:
1. en bloc, improve or do nothing?
2. if en-bloc, appoint Sale Comm. Every member in the Sale Comm must have _clear_ role, responsibility, accountability and declare that he gets no benefit other than being an owner. If there is something wrong, we must be able to point to an individual (not just the Chairman). Accountability must be spelled out clearly.
Having said the stringent requirements of the Sales Comm, yes, I'm willing to be one (if appointed by residents).
Iwan Ang
Blk 1005, #22-03
Dear Mr.Suhaw, we do hope good sense will prevail. You are right - this is neither "a beauty pageant nor a contest". Here we are talking of HOMES - our home, your home, your neighbours' homes. If the SC wants a "commercial transaction", please go ahead and sell YOUR homes - leave the others alone to decide for themselves. Your insenstivity to your neighbours' views, your neighbours' opinions, and your neighbours' homes is amazing !
Poonam Bhandari
Blk 1003, #06-04
Dear Friends of Teresa Ville,
Unless a totally fresh perspective emerges, we are closing comments on "Call for EOGM" to avoid repeating. Thank you all for your contributions. You can also contact us by email at
saveteresaville@hotmail.com
STV
If the lawyers are ABC, expect NOTHING to go the way you want it. The EOGM will be done AFTER the sale, the CSA ratifies the Sale commitee, no sale committee minutes of meetings, no proper valuation, only an estimation (never revealed as such until AFTER the sale etc. If your property agents are XYZ, then the same applies. Look out for CONDITIONAL SIGNERS, those promised more for their CSA signatures but are later withrawn when they reach the 80%. They target the non-English speakers, who can't read the CSA, documents they put in front of them. It's disgusting and totally unethical.
DEMAND an FORMAL VALUATION done evry 6 months. DO NOT SIGN OVER ALL YOUR RIGHTS TO THOSE 3 unknown, self appointed representatives. TRUST THEM NOT!
Be warned.
Whether EOGM or private meeting the end result is the same. We may replace JLL with another but history repeats itself. The new property consultant will do likewise. They are driven by income-making motive; just like we owners go for higher capital gains . We just go for a win-win situation. Owners cannot eat the whole cake with nothing left for them. Replacing one property agent with another doesn't help. As the saying goes "the King is dead, long live the King!" Ultimately, it's whether to sell or not. If yes, at what price? If not, how long are we going to hold on? Can anyone see the crystal ball for the future? Definitely no! It's individual choice; just as in the stock market!
Dear anonymous (22june),
We should not have this defeatist attitude and let others take advantage of us.We MUST insist upon democracy (these are OUR homes)and transparency. If we do not stand up for our rights, no one else will.
Cheers
STV
I agree totally that every resident must be given the opportunity to express their views and opinion and to clarify waht they dont understand.
This is because we are owners of the estate. Thus, we must not let agent or lawyer of agent or the developer to outwit us withier own terms and conditions.
Let me put it this way, that there is no such thing as to the ways agent dictats and lawyer dictates their terms of proces, etc.
We can look at it from our perpsective on how the enbloc sales in other estates is done.
But we do not neccessarily know every of their details that lawyer and agent were not told to us.
This is simply because they were afraid to let us know of the "problems" and "mistakes' made.
And what was worse is that there may be hidden detials in the documents were not told to us.
And this also makes us in a difficult position but to reprimand the lawyer and agent for their "betrayer" of it.
So let us not be swayed by them. Let us be collective in our stand.
We should seek "expression of interest" to find the "floor price" of the estate.
Karamoto
Tenant
We should not be not be afraid to dictate our terms and mode of consideration of the expression of interest of enblocing the estate.
Basically, all the residents want to know is to find out what is the indicative price if the estate is enbloc.
This is all that what the residents want to know first.
So the management council should send out "feelers" to check out the indicative enbloc price on it first.
There is no need to een consider appointing a sales committee to engage in enbloc process, when there was voting by residents ot even consider if they want it or not.
If there are "feedback bids" received for it, then iti s the dutuy of the management council to circulate the feeback to them.
Should there be any interest by residents, there should be a survey form included in the feedback to find out from them.
The survey form should find how many of the residents think about the "feedback bid price" from various bidders.
This is also to find out whethere the bids can be considered to further management meeting on it or not.
The number of "yes" and "no" in the survey will determine the need to have a management or not.
The feedback from residents should thus be the basis to decide if there should should be further work on it by the management council.
If therei s a ned for more information and inputs on t, the management council have ask their estate management office to get more information on it.
By this way, there is not big hassle on spending too much time arguing the pros and cons about enblocing it.
If the response of interest from residents is strong, then they should idicate in the survey if they want further information on it.
If they want a managemecut council memeting to table it in the agenda for discussion, they could indicate in the form for the council to discuss it.
The management should hold a ordinary monthly meeting in the presence of residents. There is no need to hold a Extra ordinary meeting on it.
This is the proper way of respecting each other in the estate.
This is the democratic way to respect every resident on it.
These proper step-by-step approach should be the basis to respect residents on matters like enblocing the estate.
Enblocing an estate is a big thing:
1. For some it entails their life style.
2. For some it entails their livilihood as they depend on it to earn rental income.
3. For some they have no money to buy a high-priced home of the same size again.
4. For some they dont want to move to elsewhere again.
5. For elderly, it can be hard on them to move to unfamiliar place.
To ensure the above are thought through and considered, the residents feelings must be taken into accounts. Their views and concerns must be care for in the first place.
When residents are confident of their feelings are heard and care for, there will be room in their heart to further discussion on it.
When residents are confident of further open discussion on it, the duty of the management coucnil is to offer the sincere views on it.
The views and concerns of residents must be taken seriously.
This is the key to it, not the management council to it.
When the confident level is raised further between residents and management council, the rapport will increase further discussion for it.
The key to success in every step of it is to ensure there is transparency, trust, and honesty frome the management council.
It is also that there is sincerity from residents who propose for the enblocing of it.
By this way, the residents who reject it will be more amenable to hear the views of those who proposed to enbloc it.
All these frictions and tractions betwen the pros and cons camps can be ironed out if the above respectful way are done well.
In addition, this will help strengthened yourselves and be united.
By unitedly, residents could get the best deal from the enblocing of estate.
This is when they could unitedly set the price for it.
For all you know, the "indicative bid price" may turn up meeting the resident expectations.
Dan Frost.
Relative of Owner in Blk 1003
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